Curse

Khift · Jun 30, 2005, 05:41 AM // 05:41

It's fair game, man. If you think it's disgusting, do something about it. Go make a new character and run around pre-searing warning people not to sell their dyes for too little.

If you actually do it, you know what? I'll come with you. If you make it your goal -- to close this opportunity for experienced players to exploit the new and unknowing, I will do the same. But if you don't actually care enough to do something about it and you only want someone else to do it for you, then you are no better than the people who do it.

This is coming from someone who has done it before, and will do it again next chance I get. You'd better get out there warning people before that happens.

Show me some integrity, man. Be better than most of the rabble out there and do something about it. And I'll help you if you do.

Sallythekiller · Jun 30, 2005, 05:48 AM // 05:48

I'm pretty much in agreement with the farmers and farmer sympathizers. I've never farmed, I don't plan to, and I've yet to trade in this game, but I figure if there's a loophole, it will get exploited. Nothing you say or do can stop it. If you remove the dyes from pre-seer, what will be put in their place? They are a viable part of the guild wars economy. When I was a noob, I found dyes in pre-seer that bought my armor in post. I think the system works fine as is, the economy system is great, and people will be people. If they want cash bad enough, they'll get it

Christ67 · Jun 30, 2005, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Lets try to keep profiteering and farming seperate.
Taking advantage of unknowing new people is wrong morally and should not be endorsed. No argument here. Calling that farming is incorrect.
Farming is where you go and kill monsters repeatedly to get items sell to other characters or a trader for gold. Farming in this game has already been so nerfed that it has become useless. Don't mislabel it or it might be nerfed further.

Why would a new person sell dye at low prices? Mabey because there is so little money to be found in pre. Could this be caused due to farming being nerfed? A-net created the monster of profiteering by nerfing farming. All games will have people taking advantage of a situation, but this was created by A-net's patches. Here is a nice fix, reverse the nerf to farming so new people aren't so desperate for money. Or possibly give greater drops for killing monsters (isn't a cane that sells for 4 gold a little disappointing after killing the Lvl 5 Skullreaver boss or Riverdrake?)
Oh well please keep your terminology clear or the reactionary A-net will patch this too and make trading between characters unavailable (/rolldice)

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 07:08 AM // 07:08

My tactic works wonderfully aobut this, create pre-searing character, and tell the new players the truth about prices and that they are being conned. The con men soon stop, do this enough and the world will spread. Or do the noble thing and say I will buy the dye of them at x price (x = a resonable going rate) when they get to post searing. that will soon stop the con men.

Saerden · Jun 30, 2005, 07:11 AM // 07:11

If someone does not take his time to figure out the best prices for his wares, he has no right to be selling them for a fair price. Not everyone who plays this game for 30mins is retarded. The costs (yes, information is a MAJOR part of the costs in online games, because most other costs are meaningless) of finding out how much stuff is worth are not something the experienced player has to pay (information needs time investment). If you sell black dyes for 100g, and expect me to tell you the real price, your SCAMMING me out of the information costs. Sorry, i hate scammers.

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 07:16 AM // 07:16

simple solution put a dye trader in pre searing.

DrSLUGFly · Jun 30, 2005, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

It's fair game, man. If you think it's disgusting, do something about it. Go make a new character and run around pre-searing warning people not to sell their dyes for too little.

If you actually do it, you know what? I'll come with you. If you make it your goal -- to close this opportunity for experienced players to exploit the new and unknowing, I will do the same. But if you don't actually care enough to do something about it and you only want someone else to do it for you, then you are no better than the people who do it.

This is coming from someone who has done it before, and will do it again next chance I get. You'd better get out there warning people before that happens.

Show me some integrity, man. Be better than most of the rabble out there and do something about it. And I'll help you if you do.

you're my hero!

Aka · Jun 30, 2005, 08:36 AM // 08:36

This discussion is a micro version of the debate over unregulated capitalism that has been going on in the dark corners of the world since the invention of the damn thing.

Yes people will take advantage if they can. Yes it's wrong. Yes something should be done. Can something be done? No, nothing can be done. Only indiviuals who are motivated to make change can make change. Will they? Time will tell.

I sympathize with the people who want an institutional solution (A-net will fix it) but I ask those poeple, how do we learn? What leasons do we learn best? How hot is fire?

(sorry, I've started brewing my own beer and have had a few tonight. /philosophy)

Porkchop Sandwhiches · Jun 30, 2005, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Man the only thing wrong is that it just isn't nice.

And if you want to be nice or not to new players is up to you I supose.

However, I always love to tell people in Pre-Searing about the correct price of dyes, personally crap like preying on newbies who don't know better can ruin their view of the game... but then again I realize there are plenty of people already out there willing to do that.

Guild Wars community FTW.

But seriously, there are better and easier ways to make money. Salvaging anyone? People who sit in towns all day spamming to buy black dye from the unsuspecting are just... lame.

(sorry, terrible mood today, heh)

Dax · Jun 30, 2005, 01:01 PM // 13:01

It's amazing how much money you can make from salvaging..but having said that I agree you're neve going to stop people from taking advantage of other people. Farming is not a bad thing....

One thing all new players should take the time to do is read some of the new player guides that are on various fan sites.. I know quite a few that say "SAVE YOUR DYES" because later in the game they go for alot of money

Aniewiel · Jun 30, 2005, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Of course, this IS just a game, however the true character of a person comes glaring through. As IRL, there are exploiters and honest people. Honesty demands that you at least give the "n00b" (Good Lord, I hate that moniker) the true information about what it is that you're trying to buy from him/her. Then, if they still wish to make the deal, so be it. It's akin to truth in advertising.

*shrugs* Will it ever stop? No, just as it doesn't EVER stop IRL. As one guards oneself against scams when buying products IRL, one should guard oneself in games as well. So-called n00bs should have some sort of warning given when they make a character. Maybe one of those pop-up boxes in pre-searing Ascalon would be nice:

Buyer/Seller Beware! Numerous scams exist in the realms of Ascalon! Both honest and nefarious characters abound in the world so arm yourself with information before accepting trades or selling items.

DavenXion · Jun 30, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

1. New players will scam themselves out of dye. Seriously take a look around Pre one day and see how many people run about with their lowest armor dyed. I've seen a warrior with chest and leggings dyed black. Guess what? He cost himself at least 10k. Did he care at that point? No probably not in the slightest, he was having fun and looking like the Fanzi 'ehhhh'.

2. There is a difference in gold drop between Pre and Post...its a different world. When gold drops in piles of 2-5 and you can sell an item for 50, 100, or "omg that guy just gave me 200 gold for something only worth 1 gold". I know people from RL who thought they were rich leaving Pre with 750 gold.

3. Ignorance is bliss. So don't screw with their bliss. If I find someone selling a dye cheap in Pre I'll buy it. If I find someone spamming for "any dye color - 50 gold", I'll call them on it, maybe offer more or make a vague statement about saving it for better armor. But don't ruin the story line for a town full of people to save maybe 4 or 5 people some gold.

There's no reason to spam "Dyes sell for up to 5000 gold in Post-sear." Guess what, not only have you blown a few holes in a hundred people's unknown story line, but now those same people are going to try and take all their pre-sear pals for any gold they have. I've seen someone charging post price in pre....guess what he had no takers. I whispered him, (not yelled in open channel!!) and told him that he may want to move on in the story line where there's more people to pay those prices.

Algren Cole · Jun 30, 2005, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itbegins

dude if they want to take 6 hours and get like 4k let them i can do a quest in ring of fire in 30minutes and get an extra 2k ez just calm down theres no problem with people buying dyes in presearing personally to take the time to get 1000-2000 gold in pre sear is such a waste of tiiiimmmmeeee

my Mesmer(still pre-sear) has 12 black dyes in his inventory....that's a tad more than 4K

asdar · Jun 30, 2005, 02:47 PM // 14:47

We're not talking about an opportunity shopper here getting lucky. We're talking about people who knowingly take advantage of people new to the game.

New people aren't stupid, They're just inexperienced. You shouldn't have to go on web sites and research to play a game.

If you're building up a new character and see someone selling and you buy I've got no problem, if you're going to pre-sear Ascalon just waiting for someone you can take advantage of then you're doing the wrong thing.

If your moral code is truly "It's only wrong if you get caught, and punished" then nothing anyone says is going to change you but this is morally wrong.

The only thing anyone can do is tell the zone when they go in that black dye is 3k+.

robmdq · Jun 30, 2005, 02:53 PM // 14:53

As someone said, the best way to solve this matter is to put a dye trader in pre-searing.

and, since some ppl brought the farming topic, since the most farming places were nerfed, farming in a party is, most of the times, quite useless and farming solo is not possible with all character classes/builds, salvaging is my main gold source ^_^ just say i can get 250 woods in less than 2 hours, then sell them in maybe 10 minutes for 8-9 golds a piece, is a good "legit" way to make money while no hurting anyone

Granamyr · Jun 30, 2005, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Two idioms apply in this case:

1. Any item is worth what it sells for.
2. You can only scam yourself.

There is no morality associated with economics. I had friends selling dye to the merchant for 1gold. Is the merchant evil? Is ANet? If person X thinks 200 gold is a good price for black dye, then it is. It is not your job to tell them otherwise and if you do, it should also be incumbent upon you to recompensate said person for the difference. Otherwise, what help have you given?

I'll echo what General Zod said above and rest assured this post is coming to you moonshine-free. Do not create a society of dependency out there....be it information or otherwise. Yes, be helpful but realize that lessons learned are best learned the hard way.

The person that sells their black dye for 200 gold and realizes the lost profit instantly becomes one of the more savvy traders in the game because he will forever research item prices from then on.

The person that depends on you to tell him the fair market value of every item is the same one you find in the final missions spamming "WHAT IS A MAJOR RUNE OF BEASTMASTERY WORTH!!!!!?"

Aniewiel · Jun 30, 2005, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdar

If you're building up a new character and see someone selling and you buy I've got no problem, if you're going to pre-sear Ascalon just waiting for someone you can take advantage of then you're doing the wrong thing.

If your moral code is truly "It's only wrong if you get caught, and punished" then nothing anyone says is going to change you but this is morally wrong.

I agree 100%. Sadly, your last statement is believed by a whole lot of people IRL. Along those same lines, maybe we should change our justice theory to "guilty until proven innocent".

smitty-gw · Jun 30, 2005, 04:08 PM // 16:08

It's only dye.

So what that some people take advantage of newbs. Its a free trade market world.

Acquiring 200 gold in pre-Sear to spam "WTB Black dye 200g each" takes some time and is a waste of it, in my opinion.

These things are part of the learning curve of the game, no biggie. And people who prosper this way and brag about it usually have real life self-esteem issues greater than the virtual world that most of us "play" in.

Does anyone really have any problems getting items or gold to acquire what they want in this game? I know I sure don't. And if it takes me an extra day or two to acquire enough gold for that last black dye I so desperately want, then so be it.

I'm am not a high maintenance person, nor am I a slave to my Id.

Ristaron · Jun 30, 2005, 04:36 PM // 16:36

What is it to an inexperienced player if you buy a black dye from them for 20, or 200, or 2,000 gold? It's more than they get at the merchant. They'll be happy, they just made more gold than selling several drops would get them.

In fact...
Lots of people in presearing don't even have ID kits, they don't get their precious items so they get cheated. Are you saying that the ID kits are a scam? I for one am not going to run district to district proclaiming the value of an ID kit.
"BUY ONE AND IDENTIFY UNIDENTIFIED THINGS FOR MORE GOLD!"
Kind of a waste of time, if you ask me.
As is dye-farming these days... it was so much easier a month or two ago, when the game just came out. My first two characters were financed almost entirely on dye. I kept it all in the vault until I got to Lion's Arch.
Then they put in the dye trader at all major cities.

thesecondrei · Jun 30, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

To Aeroclown: Quite frankly, given how obscenely high prices are for items these days, I don't see how you would think dye farming is "wrong."